Hi10 Anime
You must be logged in to access this site's content.
__________________________________________________

Latest news: read here
__________________________________________________

Regarding hi10 Encodes

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:08 pm

This is to the hi10 encoders:
All right, first off, I'd like to say that I've been a fan of hi10 site for a long time. I have downloaded lots of stuff and feel sad that so many issues are cropping up now. I was intrigued by your low sized good quality encodes and I learnt encoding myself, and have been doing it for quite some time now. What I have to say is regarding encoding itself.
I'd prefer if you take it as constructive criticism, though I don't claim to be an expert.
Well, there is nothing to complain about the quality of encodes, at most places. Please do not get me wrong: I don't mean to undermine anyone but I'd like to know why you(the encoders) do not change any encoding parameters. I may be wrong, but in most of the encodes I downloaded from your site I noticed the same parameters: crf 24(or lower) psy 0.4:0.0 ref 16 b-frames 10 deblock 1:2 merange 24 aq 1:0.6 . The thing is that these parameters work fine for most stuff but not for all. For instance, these same settings were used for your BTOOOM encodes, and the flat dark regions did not come out well at all. I encoded the same episode with different settings and I got a lower size with a good quality. On the other hand, there were things like Ano Hana where the file sizes were too high, unnecessarily. Kimi ni Todoke was encoded at 23 crf I think, which I felt was not necessary. So a few questions:
I know that all the encoders here are good and experienced and know their job well. So I'd like to know why they use the same parameters for everything that I've seen.
1. Why not use a higher psy than 0.4 and different aq (say 1.0, mode 3) for darkish anime?
2. Why are there no encodes above crf 24? I thought the point was to give high quality, low size anime; so if you are getting the same quality with crf 25, (which is the case with a decent source mostly), then why not?
3. I may be wrong here but why don't I see any filtering? Things like gradfun are needed at some places and the encodes do not look good without it. I've done some encodes that looked crap at dark places even at crf 19, without adding grain.
4. Why no zones anywhere? That way you can use higher crf for the rest of the episode and get lower sizes.

Don't get me wrong: I know you have tight schedules and you know what you are doing, but I just thought I'd ask you what has been bothering me for quite a while. I do not doubt your quality but merely want to know why. I'm asking this merely because I've found you people very open to what others have to say and I like this site a lot. I didn't know where else to post so forgive me if I got the wrong place.
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by RanDom on Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:25 am

uhm.. I wonder what files have you been downloading until now?! xD
look harder, you'll notice that every encoder uses different parameters.. no crf higher than 24?! you gotta be kidding, have you really been on hi10 for a long time? most of the files have crf 25, afaik the default debloking value of x264 is 1:1 or 0:0, 1:2 obviously makes the frame blurry but the overall gain in quality is still better for these file sizes, choose between blocky encodes and blurry encodes, this is what you get at these file sizes, I would choose the blurry honestly.

Imo filtering is just a bad idea, because it's called filtering and the word means it, it's a filter, but I know that 1 or 2 encoders are good at using them, personally I'm using some filter when I need to downscale but, for most of the encodes it's not worth it and it only adds useless size to the files, using a shitload of filters doesn't make you pro if the results are bad, it's subjective based on the source anyway, the more an encode looks like the source, the better it is, trying to improve a source is a waste of time, we're talking about reducing the file size here, aka reducing the bitrate, filters need bitrate to make any difference.

About the big files like ano hana, before the recent issues with the dmca all files like those were removed from the public list becuase they were eating a lot of bandwidth due the big size, they need to be re-encoded with different presets, Will used to encode with faster presets than the other encoders so that's why his files have a big size, all those files will be replaced anyway.

A month ago another user came up with the same topic, I'm going to show you the same comparison that I made back then:

Sharpened encode (SeMi) vs Deblocked encode (Hi10):
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=31903

Source vs re-encoded:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=31907
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison.php?id=31908

That's it, you know what's the difference? 20% file size.

PS: keep in mind that some encodes have been released 2+ years ago, x264 have been through a lot of improvement in the last years, it's only obvious that some encode from 2 years ago looks bad compared to the most recent files, also some encoders prefer to use the same settings for different series but that's their choice, maybe they don't have time to make a frame comparison every time, or they're simply satisfied with the results, if you don't like an encode you can always leave a comment and tell what was wrong with it, that's constructive criticism... at least in my opinion.

RanDom
Admin

Posts : 300
Points : 2687
Reputation : 52
Join date : 2013-06-05
Age : 28
Location : Kingdom of Sauville

Character sheet
Character Name: Happy
Profession: Exceed Mage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:57 am

Hi, thanks for replying. As I said, I didn't know where to post because I thought it was a general observation for most anime. I was talking about the anime I downloaded over the last year(saw in SAO, Steins;Gate, BTOOOM, Kimi ni Todoke, Danshi Koukousei, Kanon, FLCL, Gintama, Sakurasou- all have exact same parameters including crf 24.  There are more but I'm too lazy to use mediainfo again. I'm doing crf 25.5 to 26 depending on episode for Sakurasou and for SAO BDs and the encodes look flawless to me with much lower sizes). Out of joblessness, I was comparing how hi10 had encoded the ones which I myself did and maybe hastily jumped to the above conclusion. Sorry if I was mistaken. I was shocked because I even vary all parameters from episode to episode of each anime and I saw the same thing for all anime here- be it kanon or btooom.

Hmm personally I wouldn't agree about the filtering part. While excessive sharpening can  make it look crap, actually filters like RemoveGrain and Deen or MSmooth can reduce the file size (if used properly, or the encodes will suck!). Only sharpeners and grain addition filters increase file sizes. Anyway I don't get the funda of sticking to the source. I agree using too many filters is a waste of time (literally waste of time too- encoding takes longer Very Happy), but I prefer a slight bit of sharpening and some colour tweaking.
When I said we need filters, I was talking of BTOOOM (or Ergo Proxy or some such dark ones). In episode 2 of BTOOOM, say, there is a scene for a minute and a half(about 16th to 17th min) where there are loads of blocks. I got the same when I encoded, so I had to add filters, and of course increase the psy to over 1.0 to retain the grain.
I agree it is subjective but in my opinion, if adding light amount of filters can make the encode look better, then why not?

And what about zones? I know it is slightly painful to find out the frames and all initially, but you can reduce the overall file size. It has come in useful at dark regions, where I added a high psy and low crf zone. Things like VAFE have also made zones easier.
Anyway thank you for replying (And now that I see it, Shingeki no Kyojin does seem to have different settings from what I mentioned above.) and sorry if I was wrong.

EDIT: That screenshot compare site seems pretty good. I added a couple of comparisons.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/37187
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/37189
The second one was what I got at 20 crf, with and without gradfun mod(with grain strength as 2.0). Of course file size is higher, but it does not matter to me if quality is kept. In the first one, I tweaked the saturation a bit and used a warpsharpener. I prefer the encode over the source.
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by RanDom on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:13 am

That encode is indeed an improvement compared to the source but, is the size less than 300MB? I doubt it, hi10 started as minimkv site that can provide 1080p in less than 200MB and you've to accept that at lower bitrates, obviously the quality cannot be the same.. it's mathematically impossible, also x264 is a lossy codec, if you want to keep the quality of the source then you should avoid re-encoding it, because the quality will never be the same.
Who owns enough HDD space to download raw files, doesn't need hi10 encodes and most likely doesn't even try to search minimkv files like these.
About BTOOOM and Ergo Proxy I didn't watch them so I've no idea how it looks, I can suggest to watch Oreimo 1st season BD 720p for example ep. 8 which, to me, looks perfect in 100 MB size, or The Idolmaster BD 1080p where the largerst episode is 173 MB and to me it's still great for that size, or Hayate Cuties which used HorribleSubs as source that is not the best source out there, still it looks good in less than 90MB per episode, even though if something looks good or bad it's always a subjective opinion so if you don't like it I won't say you're wrong, we've different preferences.

PS: always about The Idolmaster, I didn't notice before but some episodes are even encoded at crf 27, like ep. 20 and no filters of any kind were used, as I can see.

RanDom
Admin

Posts : 300
Points : 2687
Reputation : 52
Join date : 2013-06-05
Age : 28
Location : Kingdom of Sauville

Character sheet
Character Name: Happy
Profession: Exceed Mage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:14 am

I like many of your encodes. Sorry if what I wanted to say came out wrongly. Anyway thank you for sharing all these encoded files despite all the recent problems with funimation. I appreciate all that you are doing.
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by RanDom on Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:41 am

Maybe I was a bit harsh, sorry... xD it's just that I remembered of some people from another site that some month back started saying crap in chat about the encodes and stuff like that, so I though it was gonna happen again... you know, I started encoding for hi10 because I loved the site a lot and it's not like they're claiming anything or pretending to be something, it's a group of anime fans who want to share with eveyone what they like the most, some of them have more experience than others and there're new members every month, I'm learning new things everyday about encoding too, my first encode was made with MeGUI just some month ago so I was never an expert and I'm not an expert now, from your pm I understand that you know what you're talking about and you've all my respect, if you want to continue to talk about stuff like this in this topic and this forum, feel free to post here, anytime!


Last edited by RanDom on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total

RanDom
Admin

Posts : 300
Points : 2687
Reputation : 52
Join date : 2013-06-05
Age : 28
Location : Kingdom of Sauville

Character sheet
Character Name: Happy
Profession: Exceed Mage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:23 am

Thanks a lot. I started encoding with Cyko in fact, not even MeGUI! I still use VAFE, for convenience, and I wouldn't claim to be an expert but it has always been my dream to encode and share anime I've encoded, after I finish studying. Don't know if there'd be scope here by then...

Just like you said, there might be more experienced people out there at other places but they don't give a damn about what others have to say. That's why I like this site a lot and hope you keep up the good work!
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by Kenjo on Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:54 pm

(reposting it here since i cant reply to zeust's thread)

RanDom wrote:I don't know how it works with negative values, I mean from what I've read so far the x264 deblock basically adds grain near the borders of the blocks to create an optical effect (I guess higher value = more grain) but at times I think that it also reduces the sharpness a lot, or at least it looks like that on my crappy 768p screen (and I don't have a lot of confidence in my eyesight too). By any chance, do you know how it works when negative values are applied or how does it affect the overall quality?
i'm not sure if Rand already had answers to this already but i've chanced upon a good explanation when i was reading over dooom9. i'll just post it here since this could help out other encoders as well, especially with the influx of the new ones. This is what mp4guy has to say:

Spoiler:
In X264 there are two deblocking parameters, called Deblocking strength and Deblocking threshold. The strength parameter refers to Alpha Deblocking, while the Threshold Parameter refers to Beta Deblocking (Alpha and Beta Deblocking are the official names).

Alpha deblocking effects the overal amount of deblocking to be applied to the picture, higher values deblock more effectively, but also destroy more detail and cause the entire image to be softened. The default value of 0 is almost always sufficient to get rid of most blocking (especialy when using a cqm), but leaves the picture noticibly blurier. In general use this value should be no lower then -3 and no higher then 3. When using a cqm the authors recomended settings should be used as the default value, and shouldn't be altered by more then +/-2. Alpha Deblocking is the most important parameter in determining the overall sharpness of your encode.

Beta Deblocking is a bit more tricky to use, Beta Deblocking determines whether something in a block is a detail or not when deblocking is aplied to it. Lower values of Beta Deblocking apply less deblocking to more flat blocks with details present (but more deblocking to blocks without details), while Higher values cause more deblocking to be applied to less flat blocks with details present. Generally Beta Deblocking shouldn't be altered unless you are haveing problems with the default setting. Raising Beta deblocking is a good way to help get rid of ringing artifacts by aplying more aggressive filtering to blocks that aren't very flat. Lowering beta Deblocking is a good way to reduce the amount of DCT blocks without bluring the entire picture. A high value of beta deblocking will cause nonflat blocks to be deblocked more aggressively, while a low value will cause the opposite.

If you wan't to give your encodes a more detailed look and don't mind the occasional block try a setting of -2:-1. If you like a clean picture and don't mind a little bluriness try 1:2. A nice trick for anime is to use lower beta deblocking setting because it won't blur out lines as much that way.

in essence, negative values help retain details by smoothing lesser artifacts/blocks while higher values tend to smooth more.
avatar
Kenjo

Posts : 84
Points : 1987
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2013-06-05
Location : Cruisin' along the Grand Line

Character sheet
Character Name: Roronoa
Profession: Pirate Hunter
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by RanDom on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:13 pm

yep I read that a long time ago, really it doesn't say much about the negative values but, never mind.

RanDom
Admin

Posts : 300
Points : 2687
Reputation : 52
Join date : 2013-06-05
Age : 28
Location : Kingdom of Sauville

Character sheet
Character Name: Happy
Profession: Exceed Mage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:04 am

Same here. Read it long ago or I wouldn't be encoding. But thanks anyway Very Happy
Anyway I'm now taking a basic course on image processing so that'll probably help me learn more of the theory behind all this.
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:08 am

Some useful stuff in case anyone wants to learn about filters.

http://www.aquilinestudios.org/avsfilters/

Of course whether you want to use filters or not is personal choice, but it can help in compression and in cases better looking images at the cost of slowing the encode..
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by zeust on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:54 pm

Man, such a loveable topic and I missed it.
Anyway, it made me realize two things.
1- Dude, for how long you're trying to get decent encode of BTOOOM? Yesterday you mentioned it too in my MPC-HC guide.
2- Like RanD said,I don't think that we use same parameters, especially recently... As I said once: CRF and AQ-strength affect the quality most and encoders here do use different values for different series.
_________________________
Lastly, a piece of info...
IMO, zones are not very user-friendly because you need to keep track of frames and then apply them, so it might be good for one or two encodes, but when you are aiming for more encodes like batch encodes, you tend to get tired of it and ditch it eventually.
However, there are two alternatives.
- Use AQ-Strength and CRF carefully in the first place.
- Use AQ-Sensitivity-curve. (That's another parameter that changes AQ strength according to some certain value given by user.)
_________________________
Hope it helps.
avatar
zeust
Admin

Posts : 69
Points : 2218
Reputation : 33
Join date : 2013-06-05
Age : 22
Location : 無 - Nothingness

Character sheet
Character Name: Uchiha Itachi
Profession: Nukenin
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

http://hi10anime.forumur.net

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by sjoe92 on Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:53 pm

LOL I was done with that thing but then I saw your guide that day so I thought I'll bring it up again as I had that doubt and I thought you might have some suggestions to improve Razz

Sorry that criticism was not meant for you.. Hope you didn't get offended. Just was trying to suggest some things.
avatar
sjoe92

Posts : 74
Points : 1835
Reputation : 11
Join date : 2013-07-21
Age : 25
Location : India

Character sheet
Character Name: Minato Namikaze
Profession: Hokage
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by zeust on Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:31 pm

sjoe92 wrote:LOL I was done with that thing but then I saw your guide that day so I thought I'll bring it up again as I had that doubt and I thought you might have some suggestions to improve Razz

Sorry that criticism was not meant for you.. Hope you didn't get offended. Just was trying to suggest some things.
Not at all. I didn't even read your entire post. XD
avatar
zeust
Admin

Posts : 69
Points : 2218
Reputation : 33
Join date : 2013-06-05
Age : 22
Location : 無 - Nothingness

Character sheet
Character Name: Uchiha Itachi
Profession: Nukenin
Level:
1/1  (1/1)

http://hi10anime.forumur.net

Back to top Go down

Re: Regarding hi10 Encodes

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum