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about order chaptering and it's setting..

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about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by hardcrash454 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:23 am

Hello Sir..

Hmmm...A little suggestion Very Happy  I know most of all the encodes of Hi10 is awesome providing better encode anime in low sizes with a better choice of fansubs...I still not encounter having a problem with this matter on what I'm going to suggest but I thinks it's better if some people know it also Embarassed ...if some of you there want's also to become an awesome encoder like them...Kindly please refrain from changing the encode settings of the episode and it's OP/ED if you like doing it ordered chapter(i mean having a different setting for the episode and also different with the OP/ED) because in the future some people out there can't joined it together..please make it the same with all the parts..you can make it ordered chapter but you can't joined it after if you want when it has a mix setting of encodes part..

that's all thank you Surprised
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by zeust on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:27 pm

Okay, this is gonna be weird.... because:
- I'm an awesome encoder.
- I use different CRF values for OP/ED in Ordered Chapters; I use CRF 18 for OP/ED while Episode is usually at CRF 23.

The reasons are since I'm separating the OP / ED and I'm gonna encode it once and fans gonna DL it once, why not get them a very awesome quality?

About the concern of problems when OP/ED are rejoined in Episode part (by fans)...
well first, appending an OC episode in a way as to make it a normal episode is a lot to ask, so if some fan is gonna do all that hard work, he won't mind to re-encode the OP/ED to CRF of the episode as well. (An OP is 1min 30sec video, so it won't take that much of a time, anyway.)

Lastly, as a quality freak, I always look for ways to provide highest possible quality in a reasonable file size, so can't help but use low CRF for OP/EDs.
I highly suggest NOT to rejoin an OC to make it a normal file, because as long as the encoder has done the things correctly, file will play flawlessly.
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by hardcrash454 on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:06 am

Thanks zeust for awesome reply..As always your awesome ^__^
.
.
but what if it's vice versa?..about your answer to me in re-encoding again the OP/ED to crf of episode..what if the OP/ED has a crf value of 25 while the episode has 23?..does the quality of the OP/ED can become good if you match it with the crf of the episode?..or will it just make you able to joined the episode and OP/ED but the quality of OP/ED can't improve?..I notice some encoders unlike you that they encode OP/ED with different crf from the episode...episode crf23 and OP/ED crf22...and some others change also the encode settings that makes the two parts different and hard to join...well one reason pop in my mind why I'm a little concern about OC is taking the consideration that it can still be joined even it's done in OC..what if in the future,OC will now be dead and players can't now support OC in future even like Media player or vlc...then what will happen to the anime that encoded in OC..something like that. ^___^

hahaha...sorry for being a negative thinker about OC... ^___^
thank you for reading my concers.. @____@
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:23 am

@hardcrash-
Well, if op/ed is encoded at crf 25 and you reencode to crf23, it obviously won't improve in quality. File size might increase but quality will, and cannot! I agree with zeust -better leave oc as it is.

However, what you said about not bring able to join videos with different crf values if NOT the case. You cannot append the mkv files as far as I know, but I've done this many times- extract the raw (.h264) stream from the files you want to join, append THOSE with either mmg or using copy /b command and then remux as mkv.(i also mentioned this in the 'how to undo oc' thread you started. Seems like you really hate oc!!)

This way, it plays fine except when you try to seek to a location in the appended parts. But if you watch it in order, it plays all right. Refer doom9 for more technical details - it is because the headers(not sure what they are!) of the appended file are removed by mmg.
forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-168395.html

This way has worked fine for me. Otherwise, the option --stitchable of x264 can be used, as is mentioned in the link, but I've never tried it, so don't know..
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by zeust on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:04 am

@hardcrash
You really crashed hard, no? XD
Okay, now the answer Smile
Actually what OC actually is the phenomena that lets different mkv files to be played via SUID. It's a feature of (.mkv) container and I highly doubt it will be dead in future. The only possibility is when the entire .mkv container is outdated.
(And let's say it does happen in future, then I highly anticipate that a higher quality maxima will be available too. Like now the max is BD, so in future it might be LMXA (random alphabets, btw.) if that that happens everyone will be redoing all the anime in that quality and they will not make it OC'ed then, simple and very complex psychologically at the same time.)
Another info, even in that future you will find some anime fanatic (programmers) that will make plugins that support OC or .mkv container. Smile
Yet another info, OC is played with the help of splitters (not video players.) If you have ever heard of Media Splitter or LAV splitter? that's what makes OC work in our media players.

About merging (appending), as far as I know, if you append two files with different crf they will not append correctly, (green distorted screen will appear etc.). It kinda makes sense..
But if there is some other (non-original) methods to avoid that, and if those methods really don't give any problem in any way, you can use it.
As of now, I don't have any, and don't recommend it.

About quality gap, when you encode a video (say at 13 CRF) to 25 CRF, you have made it quite bad. And if you think that re-encoding it to CRF 20 might revert it back, then it's simply not possible. Let's just say that encoding is not a reversible thing. (Algorithm doesn't work that way technically.)
But even in chemistry irreversible reaction can be reversed to some extent (making it up to support my point, I have no idea about it.), similarly, you can make a bad quality video look good. That can be done using video-filters etc... XD
That's all.


Last edited by zeust on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Bite me)
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by sjoe92 on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:28 am

I can tell you exactly how I did that, if you want to try.(for files with diff enc. settings)-
First extract the .h264 and .aac tracks of the parts you want to join.
make a .bat file with this-

copy /b "part1.h264" +"part2.h264" + "part3.h264" "out.h264"
copy /b "part1.aac" + "part2.aac" + "part3.aac" "out.aac"
@pause

Of course replace part1, part2,... with the name of your files.
You will get out.aac and out.h264 after running the bat file. Then use mmg to mux out.h264 and out.aac. the resulting mkv should play fine IF YOU PLAY IT IN ORDER. But if you forward or seek it to some location in part2 or part 3, it shows green boxes. The green boxes will NOT appear if you let it play in order however, even in the later joined parts.

Else, like zeust said, reencode just op and ed with exact same settings and then append, though it might worsen quality.
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by hardcrash454 on Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:47 am

hahaha thanks for your reply senpai-tachi...

yeah I crash hard zeust-san in regards with OC...xD

yeah I'm also going to try your advice sjoe92-san...you already give me advice regarding with my same other problem in this forum a thanks for that..

then last questions senpais ^___^

1. you said that OC is a feature of MKV container then if it's converted to any formats or dvd formats something like that...does the OC still work?..is there a possibility that OC will also implemented or supported in other video formats?..
2. what advantages does OC to normal encodes?..is there also any disadvantages of OC?
3. do all of you prefer OC or not?...

thanks again :)a very big sorry again for being a nuisance @___@
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by RanDom on Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:38 am

TheFluff (AnimeSuki) wrote:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=66444
Q: Why use ordered chapters?
A: Ordered chapters, when combined with MKV segment linking, provides an easy way to save a lot of diskspace and improve video quality for TV anime. This is not because ordered chapters compress video or anything. Instead, ordered chapters allows you to encode the opening and/or ending sequences of a series into a file of their own, and then have the OP/ED automagically inserted into each episode at the appropriate places. This saves space, because instead of encoding the OP/ED into every episode, they are only encoded once, so the main episode can be made smaller. It is particularly true because opening themes in particular tend to have a lot of high-motion content that doesn't compress very well. In some extreme cases I've seen, cutting out the OP of an episode reduced the filesize by about 25%.

zeust wrote:
http://hi10anime.forumur.net/t26-ordered-chapters-oc
Since the OP and ED are not included in "episode part", the episode filesize will be smaller than the normal release.
If a normal release is 150 MB, then an "ordered chapter release" would be 115-125 MB. So considering a lot of episodes, "ordered chapters" can save up a lot of space.

OC has no disadavantages, actually whoever produces BD/DVD releases are the dumb ones, they could easily use OC to save a shitload of Gigabytes and thus release their contents at higher bitrates and better quality, but hey I'm talking about the same people that send us takedowns, what did I expect from such dumb creatures? same thing for BD/DVD playback devices, if they don't support OC, whoever produced them should just go broke, imHo.

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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by hardcrash454 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:31 pm

question ! !  monkey05 

are you senpai-tachi the one making an anime series into an OC?..or the source you've just re-encoding is just already in OC?..
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Re: about order chaptering and it's setting..

Post by RanDom on Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:20 am

We make it oc, the source is never oc, only Chihiro used oc from what I can remember but, after modifying any mkv file the SUID changes so we always have to update the chapter file (after encoding), it's very easy though.

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