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About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

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About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by KOS-MOS on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:30 pm

I've been watching your guys' sub versions for a while now, and they are great. Good quality with small file sizes; what more could you ask for? The problem is that when you guys encode anime, you tend to take the file size for each video too low, and there's a noticeable difference.

I recommend that you guys have a 160-170 MB minimum on each BD or DVD video file, because the amount you guys tend to go reduces the motion quality of shows. What I mean is that whenever a character moves around or something on them moves around, they get pretty pixelated both inside the character art and the line edges on the characters. It's pretty distracting, and more often than not degrades the quality of your releases.

I know this happens frequently because I've tested this many times and have paid attention thoroughly. I've seen a handful of your releases that don't do this, and that's particularly because those shows had decent file sizes. I think you should really consider doing a minimum of 160-170 MB, but only for your BD and DVD versions. The TV versions don't really matter because most people look for quality in BD's or DVD's anyway.

I think it's pretty reasonable to do that, considering that you can still get a show in a relatively small file size. I hope this is something you guys take into consideration, because it would make your releases that much better, and I think others would agree.


Last edited by KOS-MOS on Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by RanDom on Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:02 pm

Personally I'm always aiming to 130-150 MB (with ordered chapters) for both TV and BD (90-100 MB for DVD), but sometimes with very colored series it's possible to save an extra 10-15%, so even if the file size is 90-100 MB, the episode quality will still be good, I think it's very subjective, it all depends on the file contents, if it's a slow paced anime with almost no action like The Idolm@ster, it will look great even in 70 MB.

Which series did you watch that didn't have a good quality?

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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by Belphagor on Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:38 pm

I have experienced this effect on older PC with outdated video adapter.
It was gone after I upgraded my hardware and player/codecs.

Do you see a lot of pixelation in the first few seconds of video if there is a lot of animation, color shift or brightness change?
It was especially noticeable with the blue Studio Ghibli logo fading in.
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by sjoe92 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:28 pm

I would strongly advise against going for 150-180MB. Contrary to what is stated above, I've never found much of a difference between 180 MB and 120 MB as long as it has been encoded well.

Targeting 180MB would be like going against the very aim of the site, which is to provide good quality anime at low sizes. I will not say all, but many of the encodes that I've watched from hi10 are pretty good encodes with barely noticeable artifacts, and those few noticeable ones are in the dark regions. In fact I was of the opinion that even smaller sizes could be squeezed out - maybe you guys go for a crf of 24 when even 25 will look pretty similar. Or maybe light degraining could help sometimes. But then again, that is just my opinion, feel free to criticise it. My personal preference is ~80MB for low action anime and ~110 MB for high action ones (max tolerable - 140 MB).

@KOS-MOS possibly the pixelation could be due to a problem with your player, do you have the latest KCP or CCCP?
@Random, as I'm sure you already know, you can afford to go for slightly lower sizes for BDs. Why target 130 MB Surprised Of course it depends on the anime, but still isn't it too high? EDIT: Just re-read your statement 130 MB is the size of OC episodes with op and ed.


Last edited by sjoe92 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by Belphagor on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:47 pm

I am also quite satisfied with the current quality-to-file-size ratio of Hi10 releases.
Perhaps the problem could be solved without increasing the file size?
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by RanDom on Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:59 pm

Very often the size can't tell the actual quality, like Suisei no Gargantia for example episode 1 was encoded with the same settings of episode 2, but the size is double because there're a lot of action scenes there, ep 2 there's almost no action so the size was halved. I mentioned The Idolm@ster because it's a perfect example, see episode 20 of the BD 1080p version, it's just 83 MB but the quality is very good and it's sharp. A lot depends on the source too, TV rips tend to be larger than BD, while BD can have a better quality than TV rips in a lot smaller file size.

Anyway, kos-mos if you tell us the names of the files that you're talking about, it would be more easy to understand what problem you're referring to. I guess you've already checked your codecs, right?

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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by KOS-MOS on Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:43 am

My player is MPC-HC updated, with MADVR, Haali Media Splitter and LAV filters all at their recent updates. My computer is no lightweight, and I can guarantee this is not a subjective matter.

It usually doesn't matter if the anime is more colored or if it's an action anime; if a character moves around, let's say their hair for example, there would be pixelation around the part that's moving.

An example of this is in Tasogare Amnesia. Check any episode where Yuuko or the main guy moves around while the screen isn't panning. The easiest one to tell is when Yuuko knees the main guy in the back in the first episode (where the elevator is); look at her hair when it's moving. I grabbed the source subs you used plus your version and compared the two; while the source had a little bit of this problem, the Hi10 version made it worse. This has occurred on multiple shows, not just a few, so giving you a list of episodes where this happens would take too much room. A chunk of them are bearable, but others are not so much.

This has nothing to do with computer or player performance, because I have pretty high-end stuff here. I don't know if people just don't pay attention enough, but it's pretty obvious in a handful of shows once you're aware of it.

Now I've never encoded an anime before, so I'm not entirely sure whether or not this is effected by file size or encoding settings, but I do know that the lower a video's file size is, the more data is lost and therefor the quality lowers (On a technicality of course). The latter is loosely applied, since you can drop a 600 MB episode to 250 MB and it'd look the same. But the further you go, I'd imagine it gets worse.
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by Belphagor on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:16 am

KOS-MOS wrote:An example of this is in Tasogare Amnesia. Check any episode where Yuuko or the main guy moves around while the screen isn't panning. The easiest one to tell is when Yuuko knees the main guy in the back in the first episode (where the elevator is); look at her hair when it's moving.
Can you give me the timing of that scene? I'm not familiar with the series.
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by KOS-MOS on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:33 pm

@Belphagor

I don't have the file on hand right now, but I know it's a little bit after halfway into the episode. Once you see them out in the hallway and talking about a ghost in the elevator, it's that scene. You'll know because the long black-haired girl will either knee or kick the guy in the back.
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by Belphagor on Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:15 pm

Ok, I'll try to check it in a few hours.

* * *

Found that scene at 15:33.

Can not confirm pixelation either inside leaping girl's contour or on its edges. There are some specks floating to the right of her form in the dark area between two windows, but those are probably there by design.

I have also tried to play that moment with different renderer settings. There was some slight pixelation in the hair outlines with some of them, but I had to look at the freeze frame very closely to see it.

Other parts of that episode, including the running up the stairs sequence in the beginning, also appear to be free from artifacts.

* * *

Checked the TV version as well. Again, no pixelation is visible.

* * *

I am fairly certain that the problem is specific to your current configuration.

Try playing problematic episodes on a different PC.

And while this could be a waste of time, try to reinstall CCCP from the scratch and use it with default settings.

P.S. Can you provide a screenshot that illustrates the problem?
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by KOS-MOS on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:38 pm

Here's Tasogare Otome x Amnesia comparison shots:

Final8 Subs (The group you re-encoded from):

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=3&u=18691457

Hi10 Subs (Your version of Final8's release):

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=4&u=18691457

Now I wasn't able to get them at the same exact spot, but the quality is basically the same for that slow motion duration for each video. You can tell the difference in quality between the two. I see this amongst many Hi10 releases. A handful of them are barely noticeable, but overall this is what it comes down to. In brighter situations, it's not as bad, but they still make the character border lines jagged and pixelated. I notice this stuff without pausing the video. Maybe I'm too anal, but I can tell when it happens when I watch anime from you guys.

I just want to point this out because I think you guys would have the best releases if not for this.

I also have some configuration screenshots for MPC-HC and MadVR that I currently have:

Image 1: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=5&u=18691457

Image 2: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=6&u=18691457

Image 3: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=7&u=18691457

Image 4: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=8&u=18691457

Image 5: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=9&u=18691457

Image 6: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=10&u=18691457

Image 7: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=11&u=18691457

Image 8: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=12&u=18691457

Image 9: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=13&u=18691457

Image 10: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=14&u=18691457

Image 11: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=15&u=18691457

Image 12: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=16&u=18691457

Image 13: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=17&u=18691457

Image 14: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=18&u=18691457

Image 15: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=19&u=18691457

Image 16: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=20&u=18691457

Image 17: http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=21&u=18691457
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by Belphagor on Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:22 am

Thank you for the screenshots. I believe that they correspond to frames 22370 and 22376 from the BD release.

For one thing, I can't really tell the difference in quality between those two frames beside some very slight blurring in Hi10. The original frame is a little bit sharper but I can barely see it even on a still image. The only noticeable difference for me is that the dust specks are slightly more visible in the original.

If those tiny details are making considerable difference in viewing experience for you, then your eyes and/or your monitor must be much better than mine.

And to prevent any possible misunderstanding: I am not re-encoding anime for this site, so those releases are not exactly mine.
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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by RanDom on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:55 pm

KOS-MOS wrote:Here's Tasogare Otome x Amnesia comparison shots:

Final8 Subs (The group you re-encoded from):

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=3&u=18691457

Hi10 Subs (Your version of Final8's release):

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=4&u=18691457

Now I wasn't able to get them at the same exact spot, but the quality is basically the same for that slow motion duration for each video. You can tell the difference in quality between the two. I see this amongst many Hi10 releases. A handful of them are barely noticeable, but overall this is what it comes down to. In brighter situations, it's not as bad, but they still make the character border lines jagged and pixelated. I notice this stuff without pausing the video. Maybe I'm too anal, but I can tell when it happens when I watch anime from you guys.

The source file from Final8 is undoubtedly better, because it's the source after all, but even using 10-15% more bitrate won't make a big difference, those files were encoded with crf 24 which is already a good enough value for 720p, the quality changes in scenes with motion might also be related to the version of x264 that was used to encode those files, since they were encoded almost 1 year ago, x264 has been probably improved multiple times since then. Anyway, all scenes with motion will always have similar quality changes, because the codec compression method is lossy.

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Re: About Hi10 Encoding of Video Files

Post by zeust on Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:58 am

KOS-MOS wrote: whenever a character moves around or something on them moves around, they get pretty pixelated both inside the character art and the line edges on the characters. It's pretty distracting, and more often than not degrades the quality of your releases.
The guy's right, people. Anime tend to work like that when you reduce the size a lot. Just saying what's the real truth, neither defending a stranger to make him feel good about me nor defending the site to get points.
I haven't seen his discussed comparison of the anime because I know already about the problem he's talking about...
_____________________________________
Best solution for us re-encoders? Higher AQ, people... Higher AQ.
I've told this many times, higher AQ matters a lot especially for us re-encoders.
Instead of lowering the CRF to get better quality, select a higher AQ. It will work better and of course size-wise it will not be as large as it would've been with lower CRF.
_____________________________________
I know the thread is dead, but still maybe some people get the knowledge.


Last edited by zeust on Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Bite me)
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